“Toni Erdman” is one of the most lauded films of 2016. It was won many critics awards and was named best film of the year by multiple international critics associations, including Sight & Sound, which picked a female-directed film for the first time. Pretty impressive for a German film that’s three hours long. It is one of our favorites of the year, and is the only woman-helmed feature on the shortlist for nominations in the Foreign Language Film category at the 2017 Oscars.

Women and Hollywood spoke with writer-director Maren Ade and star Sandra Hüller about making history, blurring genres, and the most memorable — and unconventional — nude scene of the year.

This interview has been edited. It was transcribed by Joseph Allen.

W&H: The first time I saw the movie was at Cannes, and I laughed a lot. Then I re-watched it by myself, it felt so much sadder, so I was wondering for both of you: do you feel it’s more of a drama with comedy, a comedy with drama, or none of those things? Do you think that’s a normal reaction on the second viewing?

Maren Ade: I think actually the story always had both genres within it, because he’s playing a comedy for her, but he’s doing it out of desperation.

So the ground is always a drama for me, and when I was writing the film I was interested in that comedy aspect. I watched a lot of screwball comedies and did research on comedians, but when doing the film I said to myself “I don’t care whether it will be funny later” because I had the feeling that it had to be honest and serious.

Then, when we edited the film, I found that the comedy was even stronger because we took things so seriously. For example, in scenes like the naked party where the boss is standing at the door, it was really necessary in terms of comedy for it to be as existential as possible for him, for the actor not to think of it as a comedy.

I think it was always both in a way, and for marketing reasons, I found it good that people labeled it as a comedy, but I think it’s also a drama.

W&H: What about the first time you [Sandra Huller] read it?

Sandra Huller: I always think about how humor works, and it was the question we were asking ourselves during the process. What is it that makes people laugh? What is funny about Toni?

I think the desperation of the people is the origin of comedy. The slapstick thing with somebody falling out of a chair, that’s the oldest joke. Things don’t work and that’s probably that, but you really have to try, seriously. I think that’s what we did — you never have to play the joke.

When I first read it, it was absolutely clear that was an amazing script, but it was also clear that would be really difficult to do. It was a really complicated story, and I’ve never been in this world before, the corporate world.

W&H: Nor do you ever want to be.

SH: No, I don’t want to.

W&H: What was the reason for setting the film in Bucharest?

MA: I mean it made sense for the story because there’s a connection in the economy. After the end of communism, Romania had to sell a lot. It was painful for the country and a lot of German companies participated. Eastern Europe was a topic in general for consultants. I was interested in the relationship between countries within Europe.

This father was once fighting for a world without borders and then lost his daughter to this globalized world that he doesn’t understand anymore. What does capitalism and globalization do with relationships? It was not that I wanted to do this political film — I mean, the film does not give any answer, and it’s not making a clear a statement. It’s more that I hope that it’s raising questions and throwing the ball back to the viewer, because I don’t have an answer. I was interested in this dynamic.

W&H: Do you like writing or directing better?

MA: Actually, I think I’m more afraid of directing because it’s something I do every seven years. I have the feeling I can count on one hand the times I’ve directed, so it always feels like, “How does that work again?” It takes so long between the projects that it always feels like starting from zero. It’s the tougher part.

I feel there’s more freedom in writing, but also at the end of the writing it starts to get like every phase of filmmaking. At a certain point it gets obsessive compulsive in a way. When you really have to [make a big decision about the script and story] it gets complicated.

W&H: Do you write other scripts besides your films?

MA: No.

W&H: You write, you direct, you write, you direct.

MA: I work as a producer sometimes.

W&H: And you have children too.

MA: Yeah, that too, in there somewhere.

W&H: Each chunk takes about six years.

MA: Yeah it’s six to seven, something like that. It’s a luxury. It feels long, but when I’m here it doesn’t feel so long ago when I was here with the last film.

W&H: Sandra, you’ve acted on stage and in film. Do you have a preference?

SH: Stage.

W&H: Why?

SH: Well, I know it better. I started there, so I think I know the rules better, and you know you can work more privately, and you show people when you’re finished. You don’t need to go anywhere, nobody takes pictures, and all these people come to you. I like it.

W&H: Well you premiered in Cannes, a super crazy environment — there’s nothing like that.

SH: I think in America it’s crazier. I was surprised because it was a really warm welcome at Cannes.

MA: It doesn’t happen always. That’s the thing.

SH: So we were lucky. I thought of it as very superficial because I only know the pictures of women in dresses. I never thought it would be so much about the movies, and it is and I really like that.

MA: I think I get confused there sometimes because I think there’s one world that is this red carpet, and then there’s the films, the art house, which I follow and am really interested in and I know what’s going on there.

W&H: Yeah, we only see the pictures of you the film actors going to your events because we operate in completely different world.

MA: And then there’s this underground world that’s like the market. Sometimes when I enter the market I’m like “Oh, I’m so stupid. That’s what it’s about!” It’s just to sell these films, or is it about the red carpet? I don’t know, so everybody can decide for themselves.

W&H: Your film has struck a nerve all over the world, and you’ve hit a lot of firsts, which is still so weird in 2016. First woman-directed film to win theEuropean Film Award, first woman-directed film to top the Sight & Sound list, first Fipresci Grand Prix winner. What does it say to you that we still keep having these firsts?

MA: I mean, I’ve been asked about that. In a way, it’s like with the Trump election. I try to ignore it because I don’t know what to say about it. It shouldn’t be like that.

That’s a strange comparison.

W&H: I think it’s appropriate.

MA: But I don’t know sometimes how to react, because I think it’s a pity. There should be many more women [getting these prizes]. I know a lot of films that are directed by women that I like a lot. Those [prizes you mentioned,] it’s always a bigger pool of people voting.

W&H: Mostly men.

MA: That’s the thing, I don’t know if women vote for women. That’s also a thing about the Trump election. It gets so complicated.

W&H: I know how you feel. I don’t necessarily think that women vote for women, but I believe that when you have more women participating, then you see more opportunities for women. So if you had more women critics, and women looking at things from a female perspective, we wouldn’t only have these situations where a woman writes something and her male colleagues make fun of her because she’s reacting differently to them and they can’t process it.

MA: But then you have this other side. I created my own environment by being my own producer, and everybody’s making sure that it worked with the kids. On the other side, I can understand that when you have small children you really need to have a big big need to do this job, because it’s not working so well with the family life.

So, I can also understand in a way. A lot of the times I ask myself “Why am I doing this?” I also want to stay at home, but then with this film, I wanted to tell this story, so it’s complicated. I think what helped me is to have role models.

W&H: Who are your role models?

There are a lot of films made by men that I like, I have to admit. But this role model thing, it’s something different. If you’d asked me about the Palme d’Or immediately Jane Campion would have come to my mind, because I really felt it was a big thing when she won the Palme d’Or, [and it was a big thing] because she was a woman.

It doesn’t mean that I only like films made by women. I don’t know. For me it’s important to see other women doing the same thing. It’s just encouraging — it’s very simple.

W&H: And you are the producer so you can control a certain aspect of it also.

MA: It’s also good for men to be their own producers! Yeah, I had a lot of freedom. I could take my time. That was important, with my two kids.

SH: It’s good, you didn’t need to apologize for it. You don’t need to say “I’m so sorry, but I can’t do it differently.” You just do it that way.

MA: I can say “I can only edit half a day.” That’s it.

W&H: How long did it take you to prepare for this part?

SH: From the moment of the casting to the actual shooting there was one year. So we met several times and rehearsed a lot, excessively.

W&H: How long did it take to shoot the naked scene?

SH: Three days?

MA: Yeah, it was not so long. It’s almost fifteen minutes in the film.

W&H: It’s gutsy for both of you to have conversations when you’re naked. What was that like?

SH: I mean, I’ve done this onstage before. I had the chance to act in a stage production of “Parzival,” so I had some kind of experience with un-sexual nakedness. So I liked the moment of forgetting that it’s actually happening, that you’re definitely naked there, and everybody in the scene’s trying to help [my character], so that was really kind of them.

MA: I remember when we rehearsed that, I had the feeling that it doesn’t lower her status when she’s naked. It gives her more power, because it’s like a question. The one who’s dressed feels like “could I do that?” Because you see immediately that it’s courageous.

W&H: Well the other woman runs out, she’s gone.

MA: Yeah, but you feel she thinks about it, you know? Or she at least goes home and questions herself. I think this type of nakedness — when you play a sex scene you at least have to do something. Like you said it’s very courageous, just standing around naked, shoulders hanging.

SH: I focused on that because normally when you go naked somewhere you try to look good.

MA: You try to look good, that’s what I mean.

SH: You cover something or whatever, but I had to make the decision to not do all those things.

W&H: Very vulnerable, but also strong.

SH: I had to decide not to do anything.

W&H: How long did it take you to write the script?

MA: Two years? Something like that.

W&H: I was reading some of the different interviews you’ve given — you talked a little bit about work family issues, and about how women always get asked “oh, what do you do when you have kids?” And men never, ever get asked that question.

MA: I found out [what some of their answers would be]. I had this film I wanted to do, I needed to do it, I had a small child at that time, and I found out there were so many men on my film who had small children at home. They also missed their children very much.

So I could talk to them, and I asked “How does it feel for you?” And they said, “I’ve done [a gig like this] three times now. We’re sure nothing will happen [with the family], it will be okay.” It was good. It helped [to hear] that. It’s also interesting to speak to them.

W&H: They feel the same thing, but they’re not asked. Especially directors, women are not given the opportunities is explained by the time away from their kids, and men have their wives who can deal with everything. I wish we really weren’t having this conversation.

MA: Yeah, and I was not the only one with kids. I’m the director, and people can organize things around me, but what about the costume designer? I mean, there’s a whole generation of women working in the film business who have the feeling they had to make a decision between their work and a family. There are a lot who don’t have children.

W&H: And some people by choice.

MA: For sure by choice, as a woman I feel like sometimes with that topic, if you don’t have children then people say “why doesn’t she have children?” If you have children but have a job then it’s “why doesn’t she take care of her children?” If you decide to stay only home with your children it’s like “why doesn’t she work?”

So you always feel you’re making the wrong decision.

W&H: You talked a little bit about male and female characters, and you were said something like, “As a woman I’m used to identifying with male characters. When I watch James Bond, I relate to James Bond.”

MA: I’m used to it, yeah.

W&H: Do you think it’s because we see so many more male characters? And did that effect why you wanted to make this character with Sandra’s part where she was outside the norm working with all these men all the time?

MA: For me, it comes very normal to have a female main character, or [as a major character]. This topic of sexism in the business environment, it was more that I didn’t know how to deal with it. I had a lot of interviews with women and it was not always [the case] that they were suffering there.

I see Ines’s character — as well as every business woman there — as having a choice. We’re free to decide. Nobody forces Ines to go shopping with the CEO’s wife. In a way, she’s doing it because of her job. The film sometimes is read that way, but I’m more critical of Ines herself, because I think “say no,” or “change something.”

W&H: Say no to taking the wife shopping.

MA: Yeah. In a way, she decides she’s not a feminist, and I think that also this Toni Erdmann thing ends up allowing her to be inspired by the courage of her father and uses it in a very strange way. She discovers her Toni Erdmann during the sex scene and when she gets naked. I mean, she’s not in a good shape, her mind isn’t [totally there].

But still, it’s a strong thing she’s doing and in a way it’s also a feminist gesture.

W&H: It took many years for Germany to start counting women directors, and you have funding from the government and the numbers are not good in terms of funding that goes to women directors. There are many movements around the world, you know 50–50 in 2020, half the funding should go to women directors, and people throw around the word quota, and all these different things that are going on now to really try to increase the opportunities for women. I know you’ve talked a little bit about it, and in your journey since Cannes in May where you’ve met lots of different people. Have your thoughts evolved on it? What have you discovered about women directors?

MA: I mean, I think with that quota thing for example, that’s something that should be tried out, in the hope that it will be changed and get more normal. No woman wants to have bad films made only because they’re by women.

W&H: There are so many bad movies getting made by men.

MA: That’s a good point, yeah! We’re too polite.

W&H: Think about the crap that guys get funded.

MA: No, that’s the thing: We want it to be fair. We don’t want more — it’s just that we want it to be fair, especially when it comes to public money. It really needs to be made secured that it’s equal, depending on how many films were handed in by women.

I mean you can’t, if only [20 percent of submissions are from women], you can’t support 50% of their films, I think.

W&H: You made a three hour movie, and most people here go,
“Three hours?!” and their eyes roll back in their head, but your movie doesn’t feel like three hours at all. Have their been any issues with the length? Have people talked about that?

MA: Yeah, it was an issue before, and we were not sure if someone would go watch it or buy it. But in a way I had the feeling that it’s the best version. I tried to shorten it, and I think if you make such a long film, you really have to make sure that it’s your version, because that’s the version that you believe the most in.

I was prepared to be criticized for the length and so that’s why I really spent time trying to shorten, and it felt longer. It’s a fragile thing, this length. Also, a two hour film can feel long, you know?