Cannes Interview: “I Am Not a Witch” Writer-Director Rungano Nyoni Talks Misogyny, Witches, and Shooting in Zambia
“I Am Not a Witch” is one of the most original films about feminism I have ever seen. Rungano Nyoni takes a centuries old story about how women are accused of witchcraft and brings it into current Africa where mostly older women and girls are shunned and put into witch camps.
This interview has been edited. It was transcribed by Joe Allen.
W&H: Congratulations. How does it feel to be here with your debut?
RN: It feels a bit surreal, because I was still in post when I found out we got into Cannes. So I’m catching up with it, really. I think I’ll catch up once I leave and I’ll probably have a severe reaction. I’m not sure.
W&H: So what’s the process like? Do you just submit your film like a regular film festival or is it something that’s scouted? I’ve always been curious.
RN: It’s a mixture, I think, and that’s why it’s important to have a relationship with them before, because some are scouted. We submitted normally. We applied like normal, and also someone had seen my project. This is why I had as many funders as possible — probably too many. Because this way I got lots and lots of support, and somehow your project is known before it’s in development. People know know about it because so many people are involved.
W&H: Oh that was smart, because what was interesting in the screening I went to, people were reacting to the fact that there were so many funders on the screen. My feeling about that is it’s just so hard to put together a movie.
RN: It is, it is, and especially one based in any part of Africa. It’s always going to be extra difficult, and when you’re not speaking in English or French, you’re speaking the local language mostly, it’s going to be hard.
W&H: So what was the pitch line that you used to go in and get the funding?
RN: I didn’t really have to pitch. I had to pitch before for development, and that was terrible because the first time I didn’t know what I was pitching, so I just used to make stuff up. It was the worst — I would never recommend that. And then I started saying funny anecdotes and then people were like, “Yeah, but what is the story?” So they’d catch me and I was like “Oh.”
So it’s a document, which I’m better at. With pitch documents I’m quite good because you get to be articulate and everything, then you have all the visuals and stuff, so most of the stuff was that. I pitched only once in Locarno, but I knew my story, so I was really confident. I used to pitch it to someone who didn’t know anything about it as this — “Nine-year-old girl is exiled to a witch camp.” That’s what I would say.
W&H: Nine-year-old girl is exiled to a witch camp and mayhem ensues. So, where did the idea for the story come from?
RN: You know, I initially started writing about people I knew. They were just characters in the city, and I didn’t really know what I was writing about until someone pointed out the themes that I was covering. It was all based around women — women I knew. Then I kind of changed the characters slightly and something thematic ran through it and I extended that.
I already knew about witch camps and I thought it would make an interesting story, but for another time, and then I combined the stories together and it fit what I was trying to talk about. I put all these characters into this witch camp and they were better explaining or articulating what I wanted to say.
W&H: How long did it take you to write the script?
RN: It was about three years, three-and-a-half years.
W&H: Three years to write, and then you went to get the funding?
RN: Yes, and I was still writing it as I was getting the funding.
W&H: Okay, so how long from the beginning of the process to now?
RN: It’s probably about four years.
W&H: So you were able to get funding? It wasn’t like a ten year project to raise money?
RN: No, it took ages to write and that’s all I did. I didn’t have like a Plan B idea because I know people can do three scripts at the same time, but I only had the one. Everyone kept saying “Do you have a Plan B?” I was like “No, this my only plan.”So I think that helped.
Once I did applied for financing it came pretty quickly. Within three months we went from having no money to having all the money.
W&H: Wow.
RN: Yeah, and that’s a series of very lucky events.
W&H: How’d you get the producers on board?
RN: Juliette Grandmont came on board first because I had met her when I did my short. I did a short film she really liked. She said she’d like to work with me so I said “let’s do it.” So we were working together from the time I got into Cinéfondation residency. So that’s three or four years.
W&H: And you’d recommend that for people? To have someone on your team like that?
RN: Yeah, if it works. I think it’s important to have some sort of long-term relationship, but you never know until you make a film what kind of relationship that’s going to be. My partner, who’s also a director, he has a producer he’s known for a long time and they meet for coffees and go on holidays together. I prefer that myself — to feel like some kind of family.
I already knew the film’s other producer, Emily Morgan, before. She had worked with my partner on a short film and then she jumped on board. Then we talked about how we were going to approach it and we decided just to go for it and apply for the funding.
W&H: So women and witches is some theme that throughout history comes up every so often, and I really didn’t know, is it prevalent in Africa?
RN: In some parts. These witch accusations are actually illegal in most parts of Africa, but it still continues. The practice of witchcraft is also illegal but it still continues. Sometimes people get very precious about it they’re like, “You’re laughing at these witch accusations and that’s cultural tradition.”
We said, “No it’s not.” You have to call it out for what it is, because it’s mostly aimed at women, and it always has been throughout history so we can’t wrap it in cotton wool. It’s misogyny — that’s all it is. I don’t know how else to express it. We have to embrace that truth before we can do something about it.
W&H: And the whole thing about the spool of fabric — did you make that up?
RN: Yes, it was a representation because in real life when the women are sent to camps, they put some kind of magic spell on them to stop them from flying and killing other people. In the camp I stayed at they put a magic shrine that only a witch doctor sees that stops them from flying, controls their movements, and so they have to behave, basically.
W&H: But that’s just bullshit, right?
RN: Of course, yeah.
W&H: You lived in a witch camp for a month, right?
RN: Yeah, it was interesting. It was like a rural village. I’ve lived in rural villages before so it was just like a typical rural village.
W&H: But just all matriarchal.
RN: Just all women over 70.
W&H: So is it a way to get rid of the women, or have they lived there their whole lives?
RN: No, they get there when they’re older. Everything’s fine until you reach a certain age, then everyone starts blaming you for whatever’s happening around them.
W&H: Their kids do it too? I mean it just seemed like old women who are just discarded.
RN: Yeah, sometimes it is, I think. This is what I thought initially before I went. I’m glad I went there because I asked them, “Why do you think you’re here? What happened?” And a lot of them, which was surprising to me, they own businesses, and they said someone saw their business was doing well and accused them of witchcraft.
So they thought it was about jealousy, and sometimes opportunism or inheritance. Most of them are widows, actually, so when they’re missing their husband suddenly they’re easy targets. Because they’re easy targets you can get rid of them, especially if you’ve got financial constraints, stuff like that.
That happens a lot in other countries more with children, because children are also a financial burden. It’s the same, two vulnerable groups.
W&H: How did you find the film’s star, Maggie Mulubwa?
RN: Maggie’s from a village on the border to Congo, and it was my partner who found her on a scouting trip and took a photo of her. When I saw the photo I said “that’s her.”
Then when we got the financing put in place, and I came back, we were shooting in a different area and I started auditioning again and I didn’t find the girl. Then my partner said, “What about that girl whose picture you like?” It’s just a picture, and it might be terrible, but he said “let’s find her.”
So we sent word out, we contacted her chief through a picture and we said, “We’re looking for this girl, can you help us find her?”
W&H: Using WhatsApp?
RN: Using WhatsApp.
W&H: That’s crazy.
RN: This is Zambia. These are the contradictions of Zambia that exist.
W&H: I mean, they have WiFi?
RN: Yes, we have everything that’s here. It’s just that, I think one of the thing’s about Zambia is that it’s a new country. It’s 50 odd years old. Europe and other countries have had thousands of years to develop, and we’re just kind of mixing ye olde times and new times and catching up with everyone. You’re always going to have a clash of cultures.
W&H: In the press notes you wrote about how you were surprised that because it was a kingdom run by a women that there’s so much accusations of women. That’s again the idea that women don’t really protect women.
RN: That’s why I say it’s misogyny, I don’t say it’s a problem with men, I think it’s a problem with misogyny, which I think everyone has been guilty of at some point. We were talking about it because my sound designer is a women, and we were saying “Yeah, it’s true. I also have to check myself.” Because you’re used to men, and then a woman comes, and you’re like “Is she going to do it?”
Then you have to check yourself, because you’ve already been brainwashed by society into thinking a certain way and certain traits, and if they’re masculine it means strength, you know what I mean? So we also have to also check ourselves.
W&H: Do you think this has a feminist message about our culture and where we are as women today?
RN: Yes, honestly I can’t tell you how much I experienced. I never had this contact with the women director thing until I did my feature film. It was more evident — the differences.
W&H: Elaborate a little bit.
RN: So my partner, who’s a white male, he’s a director, and he noticed it a lot. He said, “You have to say things about ten times.” That’s exhausting. I’m exhausted. Saying things ten times, and even then people ignore it, or pretend they didn’t understand you, or they pretend you’re not articulate.
I really pushed for that film, and pushing on a guy is rewarded, like “He’s so ambitious, that guy.” With me, it’s “She’s so difficult. She keeps asking for this and there’s no time.” And I have a right to, because I’m fighting for my film like every director.
If you fight, you have to do it really carefully. My partner can solve problems in a different way. When I was trying to solve problems, he said “I don’t understand why you don’t just tell them to fuck off.” I can’t tell people to fuck off. I don’t have that card, because they take it differently. I have to negotiate, talk them out, and say it in a way that’s not too heavy-handed. I tried saying fuck off before, people just shut down. They just don’t want to hear it — you become the enemy, and then you’re not on a team anymore. We’re in a different world, but he noticed it because he was around me a lot, and I would give people instructions, I would say “I want it blue.” Then they do it in red. Why is it red? And he said, “I was there when you told them blue. Should I say something?” I said “No, you can’t. It’s my fight. This is me, and I want it blue.” And then “Oh, she’s so difficult.” So it’s like all these differences. He noticed and I noticed. Everything has to be checked, nothing is taken for granted. You can’t just say something and it’s done, it’s checked and checked, that’s the exhausting thing.
W&H: Have you thought about what you might want to do next?
RN: I’m writing, that’s what I’m going to do. I was already working on another project for my partner, I was writing his first feature, so I’m going to continue doing that, and then take a big holiday and think about what I’m going to do afterwards.
W&H: People here are purchasing this to show in different countries right?
RN: Yes, I think so.
W&H: You’ll have a little time before you have to go on the road again and promote it.
RN: It’s exciting go on the road and promote it. Ut’s what I wanted and it’s important because not many films from Zambia get to be seen internationally so it’s an opportunity and I’m grateful for that, really no matter how hard it was to get here.
