You’d have to have been living under a rock for the past year to not know about the whole Effie Brown, Matt Damon, “Project Greenlight,” “Did he really say that? Oh god he did,” debacle. As cringe-worthy as that particular clip still is to watch, we’d be lying if we said we wish it hadn’t happened. Why? Because Effie Brown, that’s why.
Saying that “Project Greenlight” made Brown would be an insult to her brilliant career, as she went into the show already a successful producer with more films under her belt than you can count on two (or three) hands, including the hit “Dear White People.” But it did get the industry’s attention and, really, if anyone deserves the attention, it’s Brown.
We’ve discussed her time on the show and covered her speaking on panels after the fact. She’s passionate, honest, and actually making a change in the industry and damn, it’s refreshing. That’s why we were initially excited to see her on the 2016 Sundance London’s Diversity as an Ethos panel happening this Saturday, June 4 and doubly excited when we were given the opportunity to chat with her beforehand.
The panel should prove to be interesting, with both Sundance and BFI speaking to the role they’re playing to help diversify the independent filmmaking industry. Festivals like Sundance continue to impress us with programs like the Labs, Women at Sundance and Female Filmmakers Initiative, their new FilmTwo initiative, and the fact that for the 2016 Festival the competition line-up was 40% female helmed. But then there are festivals like Cannes that leave a lot of room for improvement.
If you can’t make it across the pond by this Saturday, don’t worry because we’ll be there and sharing points of interest via our Twitter.
W&H: When you spoke at the New York Film Festival panel last fall you said that TV was the future, especially for women and minorities. So I’m kind of curious, especially because you’re speaking on this panel, do you think film industry can become more welcoming and nurturing?
Effie Brown: What’s interesting to me is that independent film and the Hollywood studio films are sort of in two different worlds. The independent “Sundance thinker visionary types,” they, we — I’ll include myself — know how to adapt. We weren’t afraid of digital. We love that there’s Netflix, Hulu, Amazon. Wherever we can go to show our work, absolutely. I think filmmakers, especially independent filmmakers, women, people of color, filmmakers who are creating content that is more reflective of their community, are finding an open embrace with TV, as well as those digital and streaming platforms. And let’s not forget good old cable and HBO; they’re doing really great work too.
On the flip-side, it seems to me — and I don’t have all the facts and figures for this — but Hollywood films and big studio films are going through their own personal crisis where they can’t necessarily sustain smaller movies because the P&A [publicity and advertising] is so much money. It’s too top heavy in order to get something out. I thought that was really interesting. Someone I know did a movie for 30 million dollars and I asked how much the P&A was and she said 40 million dollars. I was like, “You’re joking!” The P&A was more than the budget? Yes, yes it was. This is why filmmakers can’t make their money back unless it’s a ridiculous hit.
I don’t know that world very well, or if at all. I can talk about the small movies, the indie movies. But I love a good tent pole and I see that’s where the big studios are having to go because they can’t sustain.
W&H: That’s a really great point. The marketing involved in these big films is insane. And they’re thinking, “How many toys can we sell?” if it’s a comic book film. It’s like a totally different world; you’re not “making a movie” anymore.
EB: I love [comic book films]. And this is where I don’t to sound like a hypocrite, but I do. I’m a huge nerd. I’m a fan girl. I love comics. I love superheroes. I love genre. So I am the person who will go and pay my money to go see those films that other indie filmmakers would never be caught dead seeing. I go see them, don’t care. [laughs] For me, those tent-poles do well for a reason, it’s just unfortunate that we don’t get to see women and people of color as the leads. That’s what kills me and that’s what I want to change. One Wonder Woman film that is going to be done in two or so years? I’m excited for it but it’s not enough.
W&H: Definitely not enough. And I know why we need to be talking about it and making posts being all “Yeah, Wonder Woman, yeah woman director!” but it would be so nice if it was just, “Oh cool, that’s a movie — a superhero movie by a talented director, that’s awesome.”
EB: Yeah, “a movie.” And I’m grateful that Luke Cage is coming out and we have Blank Panther. Yes, I love all of that! But I have to just say, remember back in the day we had Lara Croft, we had Sarah Connor. We had Ripley. We had women in action but… well I can go on but that’s a whole different interview. [laughs] [W&H note: we need that interview and we need it now.]
That’s what I’m really passionate about now. I think it’s time for the studios to think, “Oh, maybe they’re tired of seeing white guys running around in tights and shields and stuff. Well, what are we gonna do?” …Hey, I’ve got an idea!
W&H: A crazy idea! You’d think they’d run out of white dudes to put in tights but they don’t seem to be.
EB: No, not ever.
W&H: I’ve never actually watched “Project Greenlight” but I saw plenty of clips. What you did on the show and talked about — deliberately hiring talented and underrepresented people to work on the crew — to me that seems more or less what everyone in any kind of position with that power should be doing. I think that behind the camera is just as important as in front of the camera, and in fact they go hand in hand. Could you add your own thoughts to that?
EB: I feel like I’ve said a lot on this and I still feel very passionately, as I always have. I’m grateful for that TV show. I still have friends who say, “What possessed you to do that show?!” [laughs] But I have to say what’s awesome about it is not only the conversation that it helped keep going — because the conversation had already started. We did not start any conversation, we just added to it. But what’s also really interesting is I still feel the same way. I’m hoping that there is somebody who looks like me — or somebody who is not a straight white man — who thinks, “Oh, I can do that? I can go into film? These are all the jobs?” That’s really all that I was going for and it seems that it was accomplished… Now what I really need to do is make a side business or get some funding because I have a lot of people who are producers who are asking me to send them my “list.”
W&H: Oh, nice! You could be a list holder now.
EB: Oh yeah, they’re all, “Give me your list!” And I’m busy working and doing my own thing. But that came from it and it’s great.
W&H: That’s awesome. And if anything else, that interview Lexi Alexander gave where she was talking about you is an amazing outcome as well.
EB: I love her so much! So much!
W&H: She is one of my favorite people in the world and also one of my favorite people on Twitter.
EB: Oh, she’s the best. We finally met a couple of months ago. And I can’t wait to produce a film for her. I can’t wait.
W&H: I tried to find who said this and I feel like it was Ava DuVernay on Twitter during Oscars season, but it was something along the lines of “diversity is only numbers, like programming a film festival with 50% women and 50% men directors, but inclusiveness, which would be more like wanting to hear stories from other voices and placing value on them is what is eluding us.” I wonder if you have any thoughts on striving for diversity and inclusiveness.
EB: I am all for inclusiveness. There’s been a lot of talk about this and Ava is so eloquent speaking on it. I feel that when it’s diversity, diversity, diversity, it starts to feel exclusive to some people. Where including someone, well, everybody wants to be included. That’s the stuff that we learn in Kindergarten. “You gotta share.” I feel that the word “inclusive” brings about a bit more openness for people who would otherwise feel that we are taking something from them.
I’ve had conversations with people who go, “I am white, I am straight, I am a man, and I am out here struggling as much as anyone else and now people are looking at me all side-eye because I am white, straight, and male, like I should have some sort of in and I don’t.” And they tell me to my face! And also that I am getting a leg up because it’s cool to be a woman and I’m black.
W&H: Oh, boy.
EB: What’s so interesting is that I can actually see their point. I don’t agree with it, but I can see it. And this is where “diversity” feels like “I’m taking something from you” and “inclusive” is more like, “Hey, I’m coming in too, I’m not taking anything away from you, I’m just coming to get mine.” At the end of the day everybody has something.That’s what inclusiveness means to me.
W&H: Last question is one that we always end with on the W&H blog: what’s a favorite or few favorite women-directed films you’d want to recommend to people.
EB: Oh, that is a good question. You know, okay, one of them is mine so don’t judge me —
W&H: No judging!
EB: — I love Kathryn Bigelow and I love “Near Dark.” That is one of the movies that made me love genre and it is smart genre. I still love Jamie Babbit and “But I’m A Cheerleader.” It still think there’s a little touch of genius there. Also, there’s a new one that I saw that I really liked. I don’t know when it’s coming out but I think it did really well at SXSW. It’s called “Jean of the Joneses” and it’s by a young black female director [Stella Meghie — and you can read our interview with her here].
